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86 URL:http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1807-76922016000400306 (дата обращения: 13.03.18)



Приложение 1

Транскрипт англоязычного интервью

Дата интервью: 07.12.17;

Продолжительность интервью: 02 часа 12 минут 20 секунд;

Информация об информанте: Джулио, 21 года, студент медицинского университета, занимается боевыми искусствами 17 лет, не преподает боевые искусства, г. Флоренция;

- Hello, my name is Maria. I'm conducting a research about people who practice Martial arts (MA), I'm going to ask you questions and hope you will answer honestly and openly, there's no right or wrong answers. I guarantee you anonymity and confidentiality of this talk, I will be the only one to work with the records.

-okay

-so tell me a little about yourself: how old are you? Where were you born?

-I'm 21, I was born here in Florence

-are you married?

-nope. And no children

-but do you have a stable partner?

-yes, I do

-and do you have education or profession which is not connected to MAs?

-I'm a medicine student and I started studying it after beginning my MA practice

-which style do you practice?

-I practice classical Japanese MA, style called Koto Ryы

- and do you know about the origins of this style?

-yes, sure. It was found by a guy in Japan in 16th century (I think it was 1576, I'm not really sure about this). The man, who founded it was out of law, he had to escape to save his own life, because he refused to commit suicide, like it was usual at that time, so he went in this very small town and started to develop this his own style there.

-and did this style changed somehow over time?

-well, it's quite hard to say because we don't have any real image of it at that time. But of course the first master wrote some scrolls and made some pictures, he was very skilled with drawing as well. Of course, later some new techniques were added, quite similar. The difficult thing is you cannot say if they were changed or not because when you read something like this, in order to understand it you have to be in contact with someone who teaches you. Otherwise, it's going to be very vague and it won't be clear. The purpose of the writing is not to explain but to remind.

-so by yourself you can't actually learn it, right?

-it's much harder.

-and how many people in the world can teach now?

-properly? A few. I would say 50 maybe. And I'm lucky to learn from one of them.

-and what is the most important element, the key concept in this style?

- would you like to know about physical concept or psychological one?

-both please

- actually yeah, this concept can be both and it's the importance of how do you keep your stands and how do you line your bones. If you are able to get a good bones “linement”, your technique is going to be efficient, otherwise you gonna have to use strength, you gonna have to use muscles and your technique will suffer from that.

- is it a thing about only this style or about many styles?

-you can say such thing about many styles, but you can say many things about many styles and they probably will be right, but this style focuses on this.

-and what about psychological part?

-the same as well. You have be focused on how your skeleton works and forget about putting force or strength, putting muscular power. The same way the train trains both your body to stay in this way (which at first uncomfortable) and your mind as well to trust your technique and to let go of your strength.

- I see. But what do you think is primary here? First you need to understand it mentally and then apply physically or do physical and mental will come afterwards?

И-no-no, physical is first. Actually I would not trust someone who focuses the matter on mental. Psychological part is bi-product. Point is that psychological part is easier to see.

-… I thought physical is easier to see!

- no, because if your technique is very good, you won't be showing it. It's hard to understand if someone moves in a good way. It's easy to see if someone is a little bit cranky, jerky in his movements; but if someone move in a very swift, in a very smooth way, it's hard to understand what he is doing. And I can tell you this because in watching several masters at first you don't understand at all. After some practice, after some time it's easier to understand. But at first it's very very hard. Just yesterday I was training, and I was training with a pratner, and during practicing the technique, which is one movement, and this movement is done in such a way, with a weapon, which was not very easy to understand. And the partner who actually has 5 or 6 years of training, could not understand at all. He was like: do I have..? how do I move? It's like…this or this? It was very hard for him to understand this movement.

- so he cant understand how he should put his body?

-yeah, and that's the problem: he saw the technique but since the technique is very smooth, it was hard to catch.

-and is there any let's say educational-schoolish part in your style?

-theoretically no. I mean at its origin there wasn't, because anyone who would approach this style would have already been training some other style. So he would knew how to hold a sword or how to move in order not to get slised.

-so you can't start with this style?

-now you do. In old days the master would choose someone for his talent and he would choose before starting to train him. And so the certain level had to be there. Nowadays everything has changed, so there is let's say basic education for the complete beginners, before even they can start the practice itself

-oh I see

-you see? Good.

-and what are your expectations about MAs? Like what do you expect to get from practice? Your aspirations

-eer, it's quite hard to say. Actually I don't think I can say I expect something from it. When I train it's…feels good. I train for the sake of training, for the sake of the art, there's nothing beyond that.

- oh ok. But maybe on the mental level also you like something most about martial art? Like the idea of getting stronger or training your willpower? Or something like this

-maybe that's why one starts martial arts, but usually on the long run it's never the real motivation. It can be why one starts but then it fades away.

-so on mental level, so called outcomes, there's nothing which you enjoy most about martial arts? Only the practice itself?

-you could say this, yes. I mean, MAs don't help me enjoy some specific other stuff in life. But just as you can say nothing, you can say everything. See, it gives me different look, different approach on my life in general. So there's no really a distinction between the two, between what's the doing of your training and what's aside of it.

-oh, interesting. And do you think there are any values in MAs?

-my martial art or in general?

-both

-on a general level yes, of course, but you have to choose a specific martial art. As an example, to make a contrast, in aikido they used to say “ethics, esthetics, efficiency”, in that exact order. In my style efficiency is all that matters, the other two don't matter.

- that's an interesting word you chose, because my next question is: would you say that capitalistic, modern world values accord with the values of the MA? Capitalists like the word efficiency as well. Does it have the same meaning here?

-no, it's very different. To acquire that kind of efficiency you need to spend countless hours doing something very basic and repeating the same thing. Nowadays there are actually easier ways… usually it's the line between the easiest way and the most efficient way in capitalistic society is quite thin. Here it's very thick. In MA efficiency is a one thing, easy is a different one. Well, they have both common points and differences. For example, in capitalistic society efficiency is understood in terms of result: the way how you got it doesn't matter - this is the common point (in MA also result matters). Like you should knock him down no matter how hurtful it might be. So in this aspect- yes. On the other side, the logical conclusion/exasperation here would be just shoot someone. But what would you do if you run out of bullets? Or your gun doesn't work or you don't have a gun with you?

- and what kind of people would you say usually follow the style?

-let me start from the beginning. I would split the practitioner of this style in two main groups: the ones who have started with this style and someone who arrived at this style after something else. The first group a bit tricky: because it's a significant style on an intellectual level…let's compare this style with something more modern: this to..hm… something similar…LMA (dzudo is the same, Brazilian jiujitsu is the same). In order to be really good in these style you need to train many hours, like in mine, but there's a huge stress on the muscular activity. So you need to train like you want to run a marathon, there's more physical training. And on the technical part it's usually easy. Like, in LMA around 6 ways you can hit with a fist. In a classical MA like mine only the way you use your hand is more complex, around 10-11, and it's only the position of the hand, not the movement. Then, in a glove you area of the strike is very large, so you can not be precise, so you go with strength. In a classical you have to be very precise. And the more you are precise, the more effective you are. Because you gonna have some effects only if you hit in the right point. In a modern style you can not be effective if you are not very trained (physically).

- yeah, I understand. But let's get back to the question. What kind of people follow the style?

-oh sure. I was saying, for those you just, people who are not physically advanced and want to be effective without training their body that much, but they don't usually last long, because there's quite hard training as well. While people who arrive to the style after something else, usually looking for something more effective. For example, I started with djudo, then I moved to another martial art, but in all of them I felt restrained by the rules. It made no sense for me that I could not use my elbow, or punch in a certain way or kick, If I had the chance. And actually I don't enjoy much the competitions, especially part that if you throw another person out of the ring- it's a point that don't mean anything to me. So it was kind of empty. So usually people arrive there after something else, they are looking for something more…free.

-could you name a few vital characteristics which a person who wants to practice the style should have?

-you want characteristics of a good practitioner or an average practitioner?

-what is the difference?

-usually the average one has very small understanding, he's not very good.

-let's say the one who wants to succeed in the style

-first of all is persistence. It's a style which requires decades to master. And you can't expect to be good after a year of practice. Secondly, he has to be trustful, he has to trust the technique. At first your technique doesn't work, because you have to adjust to several aspects of it. So at first you don't see a result and you might not see them for some years…let's say `some time'. And of course you are not as good as you would like to be. So you need to trust the technique, or, your master.

-and how long have you practiced?

- this style- 3 years, MA in general- 16 years. But you see, time of practice is not everything. Because I practice the style for 3 years, but I'm better than other in my gym, who practiced it for 10 years. It's about how deep you are in a martial art. Like someone can practice it for 10 years but come only twice a week, and even skip some of the lessons. I have lessons almost every day and also practice by myself. That's where the difference comes from.

- and did MA influence your own value system?

-yeah, of course. As I told, I started when I 5, so growing up I've never stopped practicing. I did djudo. Many say that djudo is the most efficient way using strength. It's bit more complicated than that but you can say that this has been something I was told when I was very little, and I always tried this thing of efficiency. And I was growing up with it.

-so all of your values are connected to Mas?

-again, here one with argue if someone can hold different kind of values, or, since the person is one, all their values are entangled, everything that you do. On the other hand, a person can be different according to the environment. And your “use” different values according to the environment. But yes, I would say that values that I was taught through MA are the values that I show in every aspect of my life.

-can you be more concrete? Like example of those values?

-I'm gonna make a little bit funny example. Some people tell me that I'm lazy. Actually my laziness is not much of `I feel distressed by doing things' but I feel that doing things that are not efficient- it's a waste. So I try to find a most efficient way to do something.

-that's one of the values you learnt with MA?

-yes. Or, the other one, I think it would be a little bit of a clichй, but actually I think that respect for people who are weaker or are in difficulties is something that came from there.

-and would you say that MA satisfy certain needs of yours?

-yeah

-which ones? Like.. need of safety or…idk spirituality maybe?

-er, I would a very good way to express…not even express but coming to terms with one's own aggressiveness…I wouldn't say it's my need, it's a by-product, but it's a benefit. Moreover, it is something very relaxing. You know, you move yourself, you focus yourself, so when you go out from the training, you are rested and you are less likely to be taken away from focus. The difference between let's say a crossfit class and a MA class is that for MA you need to be more focused, and that focus stays with you even after that. It's like training a kind of muscle. If you are used to use your muscles , it's going to be easier to go at full speed, at full power in an easier way. Same with focus. If you will need focus specifically on something, it's gonna be easier.

eh, here in Italy soccer is a huge fore sport, and there's a very very aggressive culture around it. With people also being restricted like from going to the stadium because they punched or threw something at someone or shoot someone. And I've never ever heard of anything like this happening in MAs…well, classical Martial arts. Of course there are people who want to learn MA to do exactly that, they usually are not persistent enough to go for this kind of styles, so they usually go with wrestling etc.

-but let's talk a little more about what brought you to MA in the first place. So, you were 5 years old boy. You remember why did you start?

-I saw a character in a cartoon, it was very cool and I wanted to be him, that's it. It was a character of Japanese cartoon about MA

-so he kind of inspired you?

-actually, even if it's quite silly motivation, it is the one that I find quite widespread, even I would say that there are two things always needed: movies and cartoons which always give these amazing images and views of superhuman strength and power. But also you need to find someone who's real, whom you actually meet and who can say “oh, yeah, that's cool”. For me this was my cousin, which was practicing some kind of martial art. He's bit older than me, so I looked at him like kind of big brother. we are both only child. So to me he was a very admired person.

-and do you think that MA are popular? Or fashionable?

-it's two different things.popular-not that much, if you look at the numbers- not that much people practice MA in Italy, comparing to soccer, basketball, ragbi- other kind of sports. On the other hand, because of these pop-culture cartoons and films martial arts are fashionable like `oohh, cool. Chinese guy who practice martial arts and chops bamboo or stones with his sword'. Something like that.

-why do you think it's fashionable? Because it's exotic or why?

-yeah, but not only. The exotic thing is maybe some added values but it's not the core. The core is the power of fantasy. The same thing that video games or other kind of cartoons use to engage their audience.

-but other sports like football don't use it?

-exactly

-so it's only about martial arts?

-yeah. Because this kind of power of fantasy, this image is powerful enough to…I don't want to say to defend yourself but to prevail on others I think.

-would you say that in last 20 years it became more popular than it was?

-it has become more widespread, yes. I wouldn't say that its cultural influence has grown.

-why it has become more widespread then?

-here in Italy we had a season in which we had several very good martial artists on the Olympic level. So in those areas of MA the popularity grew. I don't really know when tekwando and djudo were introduced to Olympics but when they to into Olympic games, their popularity grew very much. I don't know if that's the case also in other countries. I would say that in the last 25 years as internet has become more widespread you are able to see more variety. The first teacher who came to Italy teaching karate in the 1950s- was one, maybe two. Now it's become more accessible. And with accessibility you get both: more gyms who practice the main ones and some gyms which practice the unusual ones. The main ones are djudo, karate, aikido, boxing , MMA, Pitijey, these ones. Unusual ones are the classical ones, some specific kinds of karate etc

-so would you say that in last 20 years the attitude towards MA changed or not really?

-not that much. That's what I was saying. Grew in popularity as numbers, has not gain much cultural weight.

-so, you came to MA because of cartoon, and have your motivations changed over time?

-yes, of course. It passed several phases. But as I was telling you, in the end you need to practice only in the sake of practice. Otherwise it's kind of issue. By the way, some contextualization: I've been told by both my master and his master; that both of them were inspired at first by someone or something: Jackie chan movies or elder peers. But I report these ones to you because they are both very skilled. But even other people: I mean it's very common to get in MA like this.

-so what happen to people who come there because it's fashionable?

-that depends on a person and on the gym, group which the person chooses. The group in which you find yourself is important because if it's a group that fits you, you'll be more motivated to stay. If you don't like the people you train with, you change the gym or you quit. And there are such teachers whose attitude makes students quit.

-what do you think you enjoy most about MA?

-I like to see how if you apply yourself and if you give it your best, the technique work in almost magical way. You can witness how smaller, less powerful people knock up bigger tougher guys.

-and you can't find this thing in other spheres of your life?

-yes, maybe you can find it in…dialectics, like word fights. It has effect on another person. Let's say in playing chess or in logics. In these kind of things I get the same feeling. In the use and abuse of logic. But it's kind of a stretch, it's not really the same. Actually, my master's master used to say that this style, my art is self-sustaining, it's like addiction. Once you start understanding, see how it works and the magic there is, you want more.

-so you practiced only judo?

-I tried several MAs, specifically Judo, Chanquan, Sanda, Krav Maga (this one really just tried), Chen Taijiquan, Taijutsu. Of these, now I practice Taijutsu and Chen Taijiquan, and even if I'm not planning to change, I'm not completely satisfied either and so I'm looking out for training methods which might help me improve. Of these Judo, Chanquan and Sanda are properly modern MAs and sports, Krav Maga is kind of in the middle, as it has come out of a process like the one I described for classical MAs which has happened less than one hunderd years ago. Taijutsu and Taiji are classical, and are the ones I still practice. I've made this choice since what classical MAs lacks is practical training, and I can do that on my own, while modern MAs do have that, but lack in tecnique, which is harder to train by oneself.

-and would you say that there are different styles for different purposes?

-yeah, sure

-but remember we mentioned efficiency? You said that your style has it but you can also find it elsewhere?

-yeah

-same here? Like there are different purposes but you can find them in different styles? Or you can follow same purpose through different styles

-sure you can do this. But what I meant is that…let's say this…lightness: you can say that anything is a kind of lightness to you. You can say that building is a kind of lightness to you, the design of it. That's different things. It's the same ends but different things

-and can you practice one style following different purposes?

-yes but you practice will show that , the way you move will show that. If you want to prevail on others or you want to just get the concept or you want to confirm yourself, you want your technique to develop…

-but would you say that there's only one which is correct and others are rubbish or there are different answers and it's just depends?

-that's a tricky question, cause right and wrong don't really apply here. Point is does the technique work or it does not. if you apply the technique to someone who's taller or someone who's who is shorter; stronger or weaker. Does it work with everyone or not? The one which works best is the correct one. It's not correct itself. It's correct because it works.

-but what if different purposes bring you to same state? Like if you work for the practice itself and another does it to win, but both do equally good job?

- Which motivation can get you up until a point? If you want to win, but there's nothing to win there you will stop.

-but there's always someone to win, to defeat

-yeah, so it's not you want to win, it's you want to prevail on someone else. If you want to prevail on someone else, if you are alone: how do you do it? How do you practice if there's no one to fight? Then you have a need to have someone to fight. So you need to have an enemy.

-but martial arts are about that! They were invented to do it with somebody, not alone

-ok, but you need also to train alone, you are not training only with someone else.

-yeah, but that's not the purpose, it's just an instrument

-okay, but let's say this: you won't reach your if you don't use the correct instruments. If you don't train by yourself, rarely you will be training enough. You can't have someone who trains with you every day.

-but you can train by yourself having in mind that you are doing it to beat somebody

-it's harder.

-your change of styles connected with fact that your motivation of doing MA changed?

-that's hard to say for me. Because I changed both my mind, my motivation, my body through the process, I was growing up: so I cannot really compare my motivation when I was 5 to my motivation when I was 18.

-okay, but you started 16-18 judo, you had some other motivation, and then you wanted more freedom, so your motivation changed, and your style followed it? Which is first: style change or motivation one?

-more freedom is not a motivation. It's a feeling, you feel that there are things which are not being accounted for…it's dissatisfaction. You are not satisfied with the rules of your style. Then of course motivations can change also within the style. That's usually quite common: somebody starts training MA because he or she wants to defend himself. Then they find out the style they chose is not very good for that. But it's good because they feel more relaxed, in peace with theirselves and so on and so on, and so they go with that. The motivation has phased, if it wasn't they would have changed style.

-why do you think most people start in the first place?

-depends on the age: people who start in their childhood, usually have someone in their family who trains or are following the cartoonish or movie dreams. People who start in their teen years, it's hard for someone to start a discipline in their teens. Maybe more in the modern ones, like Sandra. If that happens, maybe they have a friend or group of friends who brought them in. or they want to be able to defend themselves. Later on maybe they want to do something like sports to move their body and they always liked the idea of it. Or they want to be at the peace with their body or themselves. It varies. But you also need to understand that as age shifts, also MA which are usually a person starts with shift. It's very common for somebody to practice karate or judo when they're young, it's harder to find 30 years old man starting judo or karate. On the other hand things like MMA, muay thai or Sandra you don't see children starting them, it's mostly people in their late teens or early 20s. Things like aikido or thai chi: it's very hard to find someone who starts thai chi before 30 years old. And even 30 is young.

-can it be that a person gets really good in MA but then afraid to hurt someone outside the gym?

-this quite never happens. Most MA have rules which don't exist on the street, so many MA are not that effective.

-yeah, you can't use a form on a street

-actually, many masters said that there is no form. Because form is something that finds you. If your mind is bound by the form, you stick to it. If you stuck too much to form, you won't be able to adapt it. Form is an idea. Then you have to change form, the technique each and every time; to be able to apply it. That's why I told you that at first in my style you will not be able to see yourself, at first you need to understand how the form works, that's quite hard; then you have to adjust your body. So the first year you won't be able to do it; then you start to get the hang of it, but the real efficiency, when you are able to apply the idea of the technique even in context which is unusual. That's the hardest part.

-would you like MA more or less popular than they are now?

-I'm quite fine with it. I don't really care how many other people do that. Let's say this: with more popularity usually comes less quality, but on the other hand one could be able to practice on more people. I always try to…especially if I see a big guy, muscular or someone who says to me I practice this style, I always try to have a training with them to see how my technique works on them. And usually I find some new details. Like: if the guy has strong muscles, you can not try to hit him with your fingers in the belly, cause he's gonna block your fingers. If the guy has big muscles from gym, from machines, yeah you can do that, there are no real muscles, they are more bifi but they are not tough. On the other hand, someone who has hard skin, it's harder to penetrate with finger, so maybe you have to use your fist or your muscles. Maybe someone who is dancer, dancers are usually very flexible, so it's hard to apply joint pressure on them.

-let's talk more about the body: would you say that during trainings your body is like more important?

-yep

-usually these days, people pay more attention to the mind, and do you feel that in gym it's like different approach to yourself?

-maybe you should differentiate between Greek word soma which is `skin, muscles and bones' and the rest of the body. Because yes: for modelling and sports soma is important: how you appear: but body is everything: your brain, heart, eyes: and those are very important things in martial arts. You can not move your body without your brain so that's important as well. But brain is a part of the body as well, so it's kind of fishy question. This kind of question rises from usual understanding of difference between body and mind, that's something which less relevant with MA. MA like many other activities which require both mental and physical efforts tend to eliminate these difference.

-yeah, but still, you communicate with people through touches, through movements, you express yourself through it, so it's still there, do you feel that you approach yourself differently from other spheres, like in uni or with friends where you express yourself with words?

-not completely. With your friends you not only express yourself with words, it's different situation but it's the same thing. When the teacher explains the technique, he explains it with words, but then you have to train, and that's touch. On the other hand, when university teacher explains, he usually have some visual aid, but that's not the main part. The main part is how it works.

-but still. Dominant one and additional one

-yeah

-but you don't feel that much of a difference?

-no. that's what I was saying. When you practice these kinds of things, you tend to not be so much stick on what's dominant and what's not in communication.

-would you say that MA is a kind of sport?

-it depends on the martial art, there are these days martial arts, those are sports. They were made recently and have educational purpose. Those that come before are about different purpose; the concept of sport was not even born.

- No special emphasis on body?

-no. well, I mean you can not practice if you are on a wheel chair or if you don't have your legs. So on that part yes, of course. But I don't feel the difference with other spheres of my life.

-and what about self-expression? Through body in gym or the same?

-actually I'm used to…let's say this: my friends are used to me punching them as an expression of affection. I'm quite physical with people I'm comfortable with.

-and do you think it's because of MA or you went to MA because you liked physical? Cause there are people who just like touching.

-no-no, I'm not physical with people I don't trust. Like in Italy usually when you meet someone you kiss them twice on the cheeks. And I almost never do that. But on the other hand, I'm very comfortable with punching someone in shoulder just to say `hi, how are you?' or something like that. If I know they can take it of course.

-would you say you are more comfortable in gym or uni for example?

-no difference for me.

-and do you take care of your health more carefully because of your practice?

-yeah;

-would you call MA a hobby?

-no

-how would you call it?

-spot of my life, but I wouldn't call it hobby

-what role MA play in your life?

-they are part of who I am. The question here takes as a premise that MA is an agent which plays a role on object which is my life. I don't see that difference between agent and perceiver. Martial arts are part of my life and part of me like studying: I have studied all my life so it's hard for me to say what are the effects of studying; because yes: I can say every year I know more and more and it's strange thinking about the time when I did not know all the things I do now, but…you can not really express that.

-do you spend a lot of time and money of this?

-yeah

-why?

-why?

-I mean you do it just because you enjoy it or because you want to reach some kind of level and make it your profession.

-I surely enjoy it. I don't really know if I would like that to be my only profession, because then I would make a compromise on several things, which I don't like; as an example, my master has made it his profession (not really, but let's say this), and he has some students in another city who have really bad attitude. They apply themselves to this kind of practice, and year after year I see them almost at the same level, and I'm quite sure he thinks the same (that they are not making progress and they are not applying themselves) but since there's an economic interest you can not say rudely or firmly to them “you need to do more or you will not go anywhere”, and that's something quite common. So, I made this my only profession, I would be limited in the quality of my teachings.

So I consider professionalize my MA practice, but not as a main job. Even if, on the other hand, having it as a full time profession would allow me to dedicate more time to it.

-you mentioned that your practice influenced you body and health perception. Would you tell that you entered med uni because of its influence?

-I don't think so

-but it might be your second profession; how would it work out?

-usually it works like this: there are some lessons during the week, and they are usually in the late evening or late afternoon. But on the higher level there are some seminars, like 2-day seminar on specific weekend, and the teacher explains many things during the whole weekend, so that the students can practice by themselves. This is another kind of teaching, which is more flexible let's say.

-would you say you neglected other parts of your life to concentrate on your development in martial arts?

-yeah, but mostly it's been a good thing. I've neglected several other hobbies which would not have given me the same satisfaction.

-so it doesn't bothering you that you had to let down other things?

-no, I prefer this over other things. I don't perceive it as neglecting.

-that' your first priority, over friends, family, university…?

-yeah, I think so.

-can you compare your situation with professional sportsmen who devote all their time to a sport since little age etc?

-maybe the difference that in my situation there's no expiration date. Depends on the sport, but it's very hard to see someone in Olympic games who is older than 40 years old. And even 40 usually archers or shooters. In this kind of practice, the older you get the better you get up until…of course when you are 80 or 90 you can not expect to be like in 20 or 40 or 50. But even at that age you can be very very good at 60, or even 65-70. Up until your body still supports you, you can go on.

-and do you have an aim? Like: reach this level or that level?

-yes, you can have it

-but do you have it? Or you just practice for practice?

-both. For now it's not like a practical aim, it's more like a dream: I would like to. But there are several factors which make what's going to happen very unclear.

-lets say a few words about MA and your private life. Do you have anybody among your family or close friends who practice MA?

-yes, several my closest friends practice martial arts. I have come to a conclusion several years ago that it's very hard for me to be friends with a man, who does not practice martial art. It's kind of strange and I can't really explain it…or with whom I didn't have a fight at least once. The more the fights the deeper the connection ha-ha. Usually maybe you heard a saying that you don't really know someone until dance with them or stuff like that. For me it's the same but with fight. Fight is kind of very close and personal exchange. Of course, with girls it's not always like that. Because heterosexual so there might be romantic or sexual component, part of that, so it's different.

-and what does your family thinks about that occupation?

-they are quite used to it at this point. Sometimes they are a bit astonished or complexed, but they are used to it.

-could you name a thing which was most difficult to overcome to reach the level of proficiency you have now?

-I had to give up what I have already learned in another styles to achieve proficiency in that one

-and past experience didn't help you in new one?

-yes, it has helped me in capacity to recognize movements, to understand them but mostly only that. The way you move your body is very different so sometimes there's this remanence of other ways of using the body which differ. Actually, it's not really on the physical part. I was good at something, and I had to give it up for the hope of getting good at something else, which I thought will be better in certain things.

-and which was the best thing which happened to you due to MA?

-i can't think of something specific, since it has long-term and permanent impact on my life as a whole. I can say its influence other's people's lives: like my girlfriend or my friends have to come to terms with the fact that for me that's the most important thing. So if they want to stick around, they have to get used to it.

-congratulations! We reached the last part.

-yay

-tell me about your maestros: who was your first one and most influential one

-my first one was a woman, she was policewoman; I never really understood her influence on me up until I was older. I was really young and I didn't understand at that time how much what she was doing had influenced me. Another influential one was my first Chinese MA teacher who is very energetic person, I generally like being around him because he's a positive person. And he worked miracles on my body. Under his guidance I became way more flexible, coordinative, stronger; was very good for my mind. The master I have now, I really respect him, maybe he's the one I respect the most because he's the one I almost never had a feeling I could defeat.

-but have you chose him or you just chose the style and he happened to be teaching it?

-I chose him

-so what kind of relations you have with him?

-on some levels I would like to have deeper relations with him. For example, I have never talked about personal stuff with him; but on the other hand I have not been under his guidance for that long so the relationship is still developing. Moreover, when he was younger, he had some rough experience with some of his students, so now he's more distant.

-what master-student relations you would call ideal?

-it's quite strange one; it's hard to describe it. The master should always support the student, should be very patient with him, because the student gonna make the same mistake again and again, so the patience needed to provide the same explanation over and over. On the other hand, the student has to put his own ideas behind, because usually the students don't really understand why and how some things are done, so they question and doubt things which teacher says. They don't understand that those are just first steps, so the student really need to trust the master and master need to trust the student as well. Without this mutual trust it's very hard to go deeper in the art. When Japanese people are involved, they are a little bit more formal and it's not unusual that the master adopts the student.

-yeah, and this is more individual approach. In your case the master has a group

-yeah. Once upon a time there were fewer people, the most important thing was to find one, one very good who could be the next master. Now it's different, it's changing.

-so would you say that MA more about social interaction (because you always fight or compete with someone) or it's about individual development?

-let's say this: its original purpose was more social meaning you had to confront someone in a very unpleasant situation, in the kind of relationship which would not go very well, but for me now I think it's more self-development thing.

-are the competitions and official performances important to you?

-no; moreover, they do not exist in this style.

-in gym you have a kind of social group, do you think with your gym mates it's somehow different/special comparing to your groups in uni or friends for example?

-right now I would say yes, because they are my closest group of friends. The main difference I think is that in other social interactions it's hard to see someone really sweating or in very bad shape and beaten up. And in gym group it's normal, so it's kind of more sincere. There's no shame in saying after 100 push ups `okay, I give up, I can't do it anymore, just let me rest for a while'. Or there's no shame in saying ` okay, I've tried this 10 times but I do not understand this movement, please show me'. While in other activities there's some kind of, you know, competition. Of course, there can be competition and maybe it's good but there's no self-affirmation. No one wants to say `I'm the best one here, and you should not try me', something like this.

-but you mentioned that there's quite clear hierarchy: teacher, another guy, you,…

-yes, and since this is very clear, there's no need to be cocky. Even if you are a little bit able, even if you skill is quite low, you can understand more or less in your area who is good and who is not. It's like a perspective thing: if someone is very far away and there are two people, you can not say who's higher, maybe you can but there's a little difference. When they are close, you can say who is higher. And it's the same here: I can say in my group who's better and who's worse, because I've gone through them. As an example: there's this very skilled master in Slvenia, and there's this other one in Check Republic. And I always find myself asking who between them is better, but I can never really understand. And I think because I'm not yet at their level. Maybe in several years when I'll be hopefully on a higher level, I will be able to understand a little bit more. But you should be able to say if someone is better or worse than me because if you find someone that you need to fight, you immediately need to assess how many chances do you have.

-and is there a ceiling of development or you can develop forever?

-depends on who you ask.

-I asked you

-depends on the person. Each person probably has a ceiling, some people have very high one, some people have a very low one…not that high. Depends on you in terms: how many hours are you willing to spend on this, how… let's say this: some people think that there's genetic part to it: there are people who are good at it and people who are not. I don't really know how to position myself on that question. But I think you should be able to keep improving up until the end, more or less. As an example, I read this comment of the one who is now the oldest practitioner of this martial art; now he's in his 80s, he wrote this when he was way younger, maybe 40s or 50s, and he was talking about his master, and it said that once when his master was 76, the master was explaining something, and he already saw this, but you know; and the master dropped on one knee to throw him, and he was shocked because master never had the necessity to drop on one knee to throw him, because it's easier. And he thought `oh, he's getting old', and at this moment he had striking understanding that his master is getting older and at some point will die and it was a sad moment for him and so on. So, when your age comes, you get a little bit fragile.

-would you say it's more about competition or cooperation in your group?

-cooperation. This is what I like very much. We are all working together to get better. Everyone tries to correct the others when they see something which is not good, but not in a `ha-ha you made this mistake', but you can feel that these comments are born from some caring.

-so atmosphere is very important to you or you care more about practice?

-I care about both. There is no competition between these things. They are on two different levels. The practice is way more important of course. But on the other hand, I have to conceive that a good atmosphere is something very useful.

-and do results of other students concern you in a way?

-yeah. As I was telling you, there's this guy who's better than me, and his performances in relation to mine concern me. I mean, last month we were having some exchanges, so I was trying a technique, it didn't work, so he countered, I blocked the counter, and so on and so on, and for the first time I was able to land a clean hit on his face (of course I restrained the strength), but it was a critical hit. It was the first time that I was able to do that. So, in this case his performance was relevant to me, but his performance in relation to mine. As a mean to understand that I'm getting better.

-so not like you are proud or jealous of someone?

-if I see someone who just started and I see them getting better, and I realize that part of that is because of me I'm proud of them, how that worked, even if it's not because of me actually, the same. If I care for them and I see that they are getting better, I'm happy for them

-and do personal relation influence the practice?

-I think so. I can't point out something specific but I think yes.

-and few worlds about MA culture. Let's consider MA gym as an organization, would you say there's a specific culture, like certain norms that participants have to accept?

-yeah, but it depends very much on specific martial art, and the specific group. So there's no general norm, every each has its own.

-inside your gym?

-in my gym the assumptions are: if you are here, you need to serious, you should not try the technique to hurt someone else, and when someone is learning a technique on you, you should not make that strong resistance. When I grab you, and you are studying, you are there to understand how the technique works, so it's pointless for me to grab you with all my strength, because it's just gonna be harder for you to understand how the technique works. That is the studying part. When one is training, yes of course.

-is it some unsaid rule or it's official pronounced rule?

-they were pronounced unofficial. Maybe from time to time the master says `it's pointless to go strong when you are studying' but it's not like there's a big writing on the wall.

-and would you say all peers in gym shall share a common values or beliefs, ideology maybe?

-yes, but it's the one of the style. Maybe the ideology is `it's damb not to kick someone in the guts if they leave them open'

-so everybody in your group perceive the style as you are?

-no, I think they don't. but there are some core principles, that should be understood. I don't know if everybody understands…if they don't, they fake the understanding very well.

-and can you name things which you like and which don't like about this community in the gym?

-what I like is that spirit of cooperation. I don't like, maybe it's kind of closed group, it's not very welcoming. For newcomers it's quite hard to integrate at first. Of course, since the moment I get there, since I don't like that part, I try to welcome the newcomers and help them to integrate, so now there are several other people who does this thing, because they were the ones after me. But still there remains close attitude to outside.

-and do you think it's relevant to speak about trust and loyalty in terms of your gym community?

-yeah

-so it's really important in your relations with other students?

-yes, I need to trust the other ones. Loyalty it's kind of a big word to say here. Someone from 2 generations before mine could have said `yes, absolutely yes'; nowadays it's bit more fastened.

-what was the point in creating MA gym? Do you think that MA gyms play a role in society as a whole? Would it change if we didn't have them?

-I think it would change, because I usually see that people who practice martial arts are more calm than others, but that's my experience, I can't really tell. It's hard to tell on such level.

-lessons are conducted by the teacher or students can participate?

- by the teacher. But when the teacher is not there, the senior student teaches, and if he's not there second senior student teaches, and so on. And this second senior student always tend to ask `what would you like to do', he's more collective

-and do you think which way is better?

-I like because then I get to choose.

-so you would like that your teacher was more like that?

-no, I would not like that, because he knows what he's doing. But when we get to this second senior, he practices the longest time, but honestly he's not that good, so when he asks everyone, there's this phenomenon when a question is posed to everyone, there's a moment when nobody answers, I say it, and so we do what I like.

-and teacher is just concentrated on giving you lessons or he also involved in the community?

-he is involved but not that much. As I mentioned, I've been told that with his first students he was way more involved, but he also was younger.

-what do you think is his aim? Just to show you the technique or to deliver you the essence idea of the style or?

-I don't know. I would say that he would like us to understand how the style works, but it's not his job. He can show us the pieces and tell us what's correct and what's not correct in this style but then it's up to single student to get the bigger picture.

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